Kim Kovacs is the Chief Executive Officer of element6 Dynamics. She is spearheading a transformation in the hemp industry to bring industrial hemp production to scale. By replacing tree-based pulp in paper and in packaging, hemp can reduce the pressure to harvest forests while also sequestering carbon and replenishing soils. In this episode, Hilary Langer and Kim Kovacs discuss how hemp works as a carbon sink, why both farmers and corporations are eager to get involved in hemp production, and why now is the time to grow in the volume needed to reverse the carbon impact of the paper and packaging industry.
Kim Kovacs is the Chief Executive Officer of element6 Dynamics. She is spearheading a transformation in the hemp industry to bring industrial hemp production to scale. By replacing tree-based pulp in paper and in packaging, hemp can reduce the pressure to harvest forests while also sequestering carbon and replenishing soils.
In this episode, Hilary Langer and Kim Kovacs discuss how hemp works as a carbon sink, why both farmers and corporations are eager to get involved in hemp production, and why now is the time to grow in the volume needed to reverse the carbon impact of the paper and packaging industry.
Links
New York Times: Where Does All the Cardboard Come From?
Episode Recorded: January 13, 2023
Email your feedback to Chad, Gil, and Hilary at climatepositive@hannonarmstrong.com or tweet them to @ClimatePosiPod.
Chad Reed: I'm Chad Reed.
Hillary Langer: I'm Hillary Langer.
Gil Jenkins: I'm Gil Jenkins.
Chad: This is Climate Positive.
Kim Kovacs: we're regenerating the soil. We're adding back just nutrient value, we're sinking carbon back into the soil, looks like about two to three tons per acre. It's really fascinating what this plant can do to regenerate that.
Hilary: Kim Kovacs is the CEO of Element6 Dynamics, which is bringing industrial hemp production to scale to replace tree-based pulp in paper and in packaging. Growing the hemp not only reduces the pressure on forests, but it also sequesters carbon while replenishing soils.
Hilary: Kim, thank you so much for joining us today. It's great to have you here.
Kim Kovacs: Thank you, Hilary. It's a pleasure.
Hilary: Before we dive into how element6 Dynamics work, can you bring us up to speed on hemp as an industry? I understand that it's been used in the paper industry for hundreds of years and there are records of it being used in ancient China, ancient Egypt, but then it was outlawed in the United States in the 1930s. Why did that happen and what's been the history since?
Kim: Interesting plant. We've actually grown up with this plant, if you will. We have all evolved together, and so the hemp plant is part of the cannabis genus, so the bigger plant species is cannabis, and you've got two pieces to it. You've got marijuana, which has the THC component, and we hear a lot about that in the news and new states enabling cannabis production, marijuana production now, and legalizing it across the country, but the other sister plant to that is called hemp, and it does not have any THC, or it's a non-detect THC, and historically it's been used for things like textiles and rope and paper, and the seeds of the plant can be used to feed animals and humans, so it's had a very long history, and as I said, it really evolved with us.
As we were even starting out with our 13 colonies here in the United States, hemp was a legal commodity, and in fact, some states or early states or early colonies required that the settlers grew hemp because it was so in need, and it grew so well in so many different climate zones that they would grow that and they would use it for trade.
They could pay their taxes using hemp. There's a little city in Connecticut called Hempstead, so those are still around and still in existence. Just a quick story, I secured a $10 US note, Federal reserve dollar bill, printed in 1914 for one of my current investors over the holidays, and it's printed on hemp paper, and it actually has pictures of the hemp crop on the back of the $10 bill, so it was really used pretty much everywhere.
In 1920s, early 1930s, hemp got the rap of being part of the cannabis species, and they said, "Oh my God, reefer madness. It's marijuana, it's a drug, we can't have it," and really, I think what happened at that point too is you had some industry titans who decided that hemp was really a competing product for what they wanted to see, which was paper, which was trees.
Hemp was competing against trees for a lot of things. Hemp was competing against cotton for textiles, so these industry giants basically jumped on that bandwagon and said, "Well, let's just make sure hemp is included in that prohibition with cannabis, and it was." So as of really 1920s, early '30s, hemp was outlawed, so you couldn't grow it. You could not produce it, you couldn't make anything out of it, including rope or textiles or anything else.
Then 2018 there was a revision to the farm bill, which then allowed hemp to be considered a different plant than cannabis or marijuana, so it was allowed as a federally legal now crop across the United States, but regulated by the states, so what the Farm Bill enabled it to say is, "Okay, federally, it's legal. Each state has the right to decide how they want to handle hemp and how much of it they want to grow, and what regulations they want to still impose on hemp in their states." That has been something we've been working toward is just to create some uniformity there, so it allows hemp farmers to now grow and be part of a new commodity ecosystem.
Hilary: Prior to 2018, you could still purchase hemp products in the states. Was that imported hemp?
Kim: Parts of the hemp plant were still legal even after 1930, and it was really hemp seed and hemp seed oil. The stock of the plant, you couldn't use, but you could use the seeds at the top for very specific things, so if you went to Whole Foods, for example, in 2010, you could buy hemp seed and you could consume it yourself. You could get hemp milk, you could have hemp seed oil to cook with, or as some sort of a medicinal thing, but you couldn't use the plant itself to make textile.
It was very complicated. It was hard to understand because at the same time, even though we could eat it and it was fine, those hemp seeds, we couldn't feed them to our chickens or cows or pigs or what have you, or our pets for that matter, so it's just been a really hard thing for people to understand. Some of the hemp plant was allowable.
Other countries still grew hemp as an industrial crop. China has been growing hemp ever since, they never really put it on the prohibition list. Other areas in Europe like Ukraine has been doing hemp for a long time. Italy and Spain also have some deep hemp roots, if you will, but certain other areas have said, "Absolutely not," including the Netherlands and Sweden and some of those upper Scandinavian countries have outlawed hemp completely and still do from a lot of that.
It's a really complex thing. It's one of the things that we had element6 Dynamics do, is really sit on the forefront of policy, and looking at these different things, and how do we open up, not just the United States and have free trade in and amongst our states, but how do we open it up globally? Because it is a global supply chain solution if we can address all of those things at the same time.
Hilary: Element6 Dynamics is really focused on hemp pulp as a replacement for paper, what is it about hemp that makes it suitable for paper?
Kim: Well, let's just roll that back for a couple of years just because it has taken us at least a few years, I'd say probably more like four or five now, to really understand where we can make an impact in the hemp space and do it right now, as opposed to the further research and development that needs to go into a lot of other potential markets for hemp.
As I mentioned early on, hemp was used for so many things. It was used for textiles, rope, paper, we can use it for building materials, there's a hempcrete out there that can be used for housing and different things. There's so many uses. In fact, there are some folks that say 50,000 uses for that plant. Well, that's a lot.
As you're starting to look at emerging markets and putting this plant into new applications, we had to really figure out where best to start. We looked at the landscape of plastic, we've looked at animal feed, we've looked at the housing market with hempcrete and other things, where we really landed was pulp. Right now in the United States, we cut down a tremendous amount of trees that we literally throw away, whether that's with paper, tissues, baby wipes, packages, we all went through Christmas recently, and looking at the number of packaging items that are left on our doorsteps. Those are all using tree-based pulp.
Hemp, what we have found and what we've been working on for the last several years now, so we can replace that. We can replace it either in portions or in total, depending on the application. We're really hyper-focused on that, and we've seen so far knock on wood, a lot of success in the pulp that we've now created, and the applications that we can start to use it in.
Hilary: The structure of hemp is really well suited for paper, I understand, has these long fibers that can be recycled many more times than paper.
Kim: Hemp is an interesting plant. It's almost a combination or really an almost tree but not quite the same as a plant. I'm not an agronomist, so forgive me for using lay terms here, but it's really a more sturdy hardy stock, than a lot of other grown plants like corn and so forth. Corn has really just a husk to it, and it's more of a singular use, if you will, whereas the hemp plant has both what's called fiber and heard. It's got softer fiber pieces to it, but then it's got a stronger heard component as well, that makes it really suitable for this multiple use of the plant for different things.
When we're making pulp, we use the whole plant to be able then to determine how much fiber and how much fiber length we put into the pulp for the different uses. Things like a cardboard box, you need it to be stronger. It needs to be more durable, especially on the outside layers of that cardboard. We process that hemp a little bit differently, we grow it a little bit differently, we harvest it a little bit differently so that we can maintain a semi-longer stronger fiber to support that box strength.
Whereas if you've got a tissue or you've got a piece of paper, you don't necessarily want it that strong. You want to be able to tear it, you want to be able to put it through a shredder or do whatever you need to do with that piece of paper, versus something that has those stronger fibers. Hemp is really just fascinating. It's evolved with us for these uses that we already had for the last couple of thousand years, and we're able to really dial in, I would say, both the chemistry in creating this pulp differently for these different uses, but also on the grow side of it as well.
Hilary: Tell me about the early iterations of element6 Dynamics. When did you start and what has that evolution been like?
Kim: The company started in really 2018, alongside the Farm Bill. Steven Gluckstern was the founder of the company at the time, and he was approached by a couple of individuals, and said, "Hey, we're getting into this hemp farming market. Do you want to come in with us and start a hemp farm?" Steven's like, "Yes." He lived in Santa Fe, New Mexico, hence the original company name was Santa Fe Farms.
We purchased farmland in New Mexico, we started growing hemp, and I think under the first or second harvest, Steven recognized that he's not a farmer. He's a businessman. He worked for Warren Buffett, he literally invented reinsurance, and got that market going back in the late '80s and early '90s, very successful person. He then looked at the landscape of hemp at the time and said, "Well, I'm probably better suited to bring this product to the forefront versus being a hemp farmer and really focusing on one aspect," which at the time was CBD.
When hemp became legalized in 2018, really the early 2019 farming went toward creating a hemp derivative called CBD, which is a CBD oil. It's a cannabinoid and it's used for health and wellness. People really embraced that fast, and a lot of the hemp growing was towards that, including us. We grew for CBD.
However, the market got saturated really fast. Legally, it's still a little bit up in the air from a regulatory perspective. How can you sell it, is it legal, is it a supplement, is it a medicine? There's still a lot of what-ifs in the CBD market space, and so we just decided a couple of years ago to say, "You know what? CBD is good, it's over here, but we're going to focus on industrial." When Steven decided to make that switch, he recruited me from Arcview.
I was the CEO and chairman of Arcview, and really looking at new opportunities in the overall cannabis space. Hemp for me was like front and center because this to me was something I could really dig into because it's sustainable, it's renewable. Hemp regenerates the soil as it's growing. It's got so many of these benefits, and less so on the regulatory side, and from an industrial standpoint, why not start using it?
Steven and I really bonded over that. I came on, joined the company in March of 2021, and then became the CEO at the end of that year. Unfortunately, Steven passed away last year. It was a real loss for the company. We lost our visionary, we lost our evangelist. I used to say he was a frontiersman because he really liked to go to these net new things. What he left is a company that is so hyper-focused on delivering pulp and making that impact with hemp in this marketplace, and that's really what we're doing.
We're continuing his vision in that regard. We've gotten ourselves out of the CBD space. We're not focused on that, but our focus now is creating this industrial space and working in the supply chain. Hilary, it's probably the most important thing as a takeaway here, and this leverages my experience in the oil and gas space, also in clean tech, which is, if you're trying to introduce something and making an industry change the way that it does its business, it's never going to be successful.
We had to do two things before we really started working in this market. We had to understand what the market needed. Do they need pulp delivered at their doorstep in a certain spec, a certain price, a certain quantity, a certain kind of delivery mechanism, and what then do we then support with the back end of that of farming? How do we then create the structure that gives them the security that that product's going to be there tomorrow?
You can't ask somebody to switch if it's not going to be there. That's just a recipe for disaster. We really did our work in making sure that hemp was competitive, not just from a product side, but a costing side, and that we had enough farmlands identified through partners to be able to support the demand for those customers.
Hilary: I understand that. You're focused on being extremely profitable, growing quickly, but then at the core of your business model is this emphasis on deliberately restoring the fields and the ecosystems in which you operate, and as part of that, you've launched a Farm Partner Program. What does that look like?
Kim: In our history of being a farmer, really understanding what does it take to farm any crop, for example, we need to really rely on farmers who know their land. A farmer in Wisconsin is different than a farmer in Colorado and different from one in Kansas or Washington state. Those lands are different. They require different nutrients, different water, different ways in which to farm that land, so we found early on that we know hemp. We know the hemp plant itself, we know how genetics play into different soil conditions and different farm techniques, but we don't know the land that it's going to go into, so we created this partnership program.
It's called our Farm Partner Program, where we provide specific genetics seeds to farmers on their land, and we then secure the offtake. It's no risk to the farmer and what the farmer then is enabled to do is to start growing hemp on their lands where they might have been growing soy or wheat or even potatoes, for example. Our idea with them, and what we've been doing now for the last few years, is that we don't want to do this every year, day in, day out, but what we want to do is start rotating in. If you grow wheat two years, and you need to put in a rotational crop, we want it to be hemp on that third year.
What we're also finding both anecdotally and now with data because we're starting to collect data off of the fields of our farmers that we work with, is that we're regenerating the soil. We're adding back just nutrient value, we're sinking carbon back into the soil, looks like about two to three tons per acre, and again, we're just getting started on the data side, but it's really fascinating what this plant can do to regenerate that.
It's a win-win. It's a win for the farmers. They get a chance to regenerate their soil. They have a crop on a rotational year that may or may not have been economically attractive for them that now becomes extremely economically attractive, and we can now grow across the country and marry up the supply chain. I think that's one of the things we really want to talk about is this whole supply chain, and what's happened since COVID is really created an opportunity, I think, for us.
Hilary: Let's get into that with a supply chain. You'll have processing sites across the country. Why do you need so many distributed processing plants?
Kim: Hemp is a big plant. It grows to 15 feet tall, that's our goal, so we want to have a lot of fiber. We want to have a lot of biomass. We want those plants to grow, we want them to be really tight together, we want them to be really tall.
When we harvest hemp, it's heavy. It's a heavy product. It's got a lot of water in it just like any other crop. In order for us to minimize the cost of transportation, maximize the opportunities with it, we need to have what we call mini pulping facilities in and around where we're growing. What we've been doing is working with engineering firms, working with investors, actually really large investment infrastructure funds to look at existing pulp facilities where we can retrofit for our hemp processing at the beginning of that and either take over that pulp facility or add a line to it.
What we found is there's hundreds of pulp facilities across the country, geographically located in perfect spots, the middle of Wisconsin, Tennessee, Kentucky, Alabama, or Texas, for example. There's all of these pulp facilities that already exist that are struggling. A lot of them have closed over the last few years. The pricing of trees and cutting down trees has really impacted that. Their supply chain has been impacted by COVID and getting raw material in from other countries and made that very expensive. They, therefore, have had to close or really shrink back the production.
We want to go in, and I don't want to say save them, but get them online again, and using local community resource, having jobs. The middle of Wisconsin may have been responsible for this one pulp mill employing 100 people, and it's now shuttered. We want to reinvigorate that. We want to bring those people back. We want them working now with a sustainable product, working next to their farm brothers and sisters who are now growing the plant right next to them literally within a 50 to 100-mile radius, and creating this pulp that our strategic customers want to buy right now.
Gil: Climate Positive is produced by Hannon Armstrong, a leading investor in climate solutions for over 30 years. To learn more about our climate positive journey, please visit HannonArmstrong.com.
Hilary: With your strategic partners or your corporate buyers, what is motivating them to purchase the hemp pulp and use that in place of the wood pulp?
Kim: Yes, I'll give your our first big strategic customer, Ingram Content. Ingram Content is the largest print-on-demand company in the world. John Ingram as sort of the CEO of Ingram industries, in the late '90s, started this group called Ingram Content, which was designed to be really sustainable in the book publishing world because before and still, publishers will print 10,000 copies, and they'll sit in a warehouse and he said, "Well, that's kind of wasteful, you've got all these potential volumes that don't get sold, and what do you do with that? It's a lot of waste."
Ingram Content does print on demand. If you go online, and you order a book, your favorite book, and you say, "I want that delivered to my house," that order goes to Ingram and they print that book that day, and they send it to you. We do this 70 million times in a year and have one, maybe two titles at a time, but they have this incredible facility, and they use tree-based paper to do it in these huge 1000-pound rolls at a time that they bring in from their paper mill suppliers.
John Ingram, several years ago, before he even met element6, said, "I don't want to cut down trees to do this." He took the first step. "I don't need to over-publish, but now how can we get to be sustainable? How can we as a company start offering to our publishing partners a solution for paper?" So we've now joined forces together. We're creating a specialty paper for him specifically in his business, so that they can print on a blend.
It won't be 100% hemp to start, but it'll be a significant amount, and we're going to be saving trees as we do it, but his customers more importantly, the publishers who rely on Ingram for solutions, are now asking, "How can we be more sustainable? How can we as part of what we're doing in publishing new authors have an ESG story here for them?" They're excited that Ingram is taking this leadership step and so are we.
That's our first real strategic partner. We have 30 more in the wings. We have 30 companies that we're talking to right now that want to take that kind of a step. They're in everything from, like I said before, packaging, baby wipes, diapers, all sorts of uses that we shouldn't be really cutting down a virgin tree to do.
Hilary: Do you have enough production to meet that demand?
Kim: We do not.
[laughter]
Hilary: Next step.
Kim: Yes, it's a chicken and egg problem, Hilary, and that's been the hardest part, I think, for hemp as an industry because a lot of the people who jumped in and started growing hemp in 2019, let's just say, they got burned. They were growing hemp for the CBD business and they said, "Oh, hey, look at this market, it's taking off. We're going to grow this product," and all of a sudden, they started losing money because they couldn't sell the product in the market anymore, it was saturated.
A lot of farmers are saying, "We can't take this risk. We can't build it, they will come. We need industry," and this is really, really critical, and I think important across the board and climate, which is we need industry to precede these solutions. We need industry to invest in the solution before the solution exists because otherwise, it's never going to happen, and that's one of the things that Ingram, and bless his soul, John, recognized is that if we don't step in as an investor, which they did last year.
We still had this stuff on the whiteboard. He was willing to step in and take that risk early with us knowing that it may or may not work, but if he didn't try, who would? I'm challenging all of these industry leaders out there, the largest consumers or users of, let's say, cardboard and packaging and other things that if you don't step in today, you're not going to have a solution tomorrow.
The industry is not just going to build itself for the sake of building and that I think is a really good lesson for us in all of these climate opportunities because some will pencil out and be profitable, some will not, but they can get there.
Hilary: Although at the industrial level, hemp paper will be about on par with wood pulp paper, correct?
Kim: One of the things that happened with COVID is that the pricing of pulp went up dramatically. Supply chains, like I said, were impacted, so the ceiling of the pulp pricing we believe now is the new floor. We don't see pulp pricing coming down where it was five years ago, if you will. What we're finding is that, we now with hemp can be very price-competitive, locally grown. We don't have to go to the forest in Canada. We don't have to go to Asia, we don't need to go to these other markets. We can grow hemp in our backyard, we can process it in our backyard, and we can send it to a paper mill down the street and we can now get these products that we rely on day in and day out. That gives us a chance to really domesticate that.
Hilary: Can you tell us a little bit more about the sustainability of hemp in terms of the soil health, growth cycle, and water use?
Kim: It's unfortunate, but yes, we have moved into this really almost horrific, if you think about it, how we handle the trees in this world now and what we want from them. I live in California. There were several years ago where you would walk into a grocery store and they'd say paper plastic. You had to almost make a decision on where environmentally you thought one was better or worse than the other. We had a choice at that point between paper and plastic.
Well, now they've outlawed plastic completely in the state of California. Really what you've got now are paper bags. I thought, how did we get back to that? Hold on a second. I get not using plastic, but now we have paper which is cutting down trees. Even with recycled paper, you only get four times to recycle a bag or another tree-based pulp. It's four times because the fibers just break down because they're just not strong enough anymore.
Hemp, fortunately-- because it's a bigger, stronger fiber plant, we can get twice that on recycling. You start to layer in some of these environmental benefits beyond just the carbon and the soil, but also in how we use post-consumable materials. Then doubling the life of that if we can start to use hemp. The hemp plant itself, like I've said before, anecdotally, and with some data which we need more data to support, does sequester carbon, the root system of the hemp plant is a little deeper than some other crops.
A lot of crops get measured at the first 6 to 12 inches in the soil. Hemp is really good between the second and third foot. We're looking at 24 to 36 inches. That's really where we're seeing a lot of the sequestering coming in and the permanency of that. If you don't till the soil and really expose that topsoil again, it'll be permanent. It's a permanent sequestration, and an acre of hemp is about the same as an acre of trees, but it takes 120 days to get there versus 20 years of growth.
We start to really look at all these things in total, it's pretty incredible. Like you said, it's 68 million trees here in the United States cut down, 50% of which gets literally flushed on the toilet. We need to stop that. We have to figure this out because that's just not sustainable in itself. If we're not using these regenerative type products, hemp or others, it's just not going to make any sense.
Hilary: You mentioned that it takes 120 days for the hemp to grow to the point where it can be processed. Is this an annual cycle or can the pulp processing facilities and the farmers be focused on this throughout the year?
Kim: Most regions, you're going to get one grow cycle, and we've actually got some of our genetics that can grow a little faster because the 120 days also contemplates it getting to a seed. We don't necessarily need the seed. We do for replanting the next year. We will if we start to use it for animal feed and other things. For right now, we can actually just use the fiber, and if we can grow it in, let's just say 90 days, our optimal scenario is that we grow the fiber only-- I like using Wisconsin because we've had such a great success already with Wisconsin. Some of our pulp facilities are probably going to be there, our paper partners are close by.
We could plant in Wisconsin early right after the first frost or thaw, if you will, and go for that 90 days, the farmer can harvest that. Then they can plant wheat on top of it. If you think about it from a farmer's perspective, I get two crops out of something. Normally, I would only get one, and both of those are really now high-valued crops. That is incredible. Think of that as a shorter little period. Now, in the south, we're going to start growing in Texas pretty aggressively this year. We think we probably can get two crops out of that season too.
Hilary: That's great.
Kim: It's great. Then as we start to build the supply chain, it's going to be a global thing. That's really where I'm pushing this year is to get a uniform global supply chain solution because we can grow hemp in a lot of different areas. Just to give some numbers and perspective, our goal is to get to a million acres. We think in a million acres, the hemp plant is really now a crop for the United States.
The reason we believe that is because there's 90 million acres of corn grown in the United States every year. A million doesn't seem that much when you stack it up against 90. A lot of that corn is put into other uses; 30% into ethanol, another 30% or 40% into animal feed, so very little of it is really used for human consumption. It's really mostly for other types of things.
For us, if we can start to say, "Hey, the hemp plant can be grown for the fiber, it can be grown for the material that we need for the pulp, we can now maybe potentially grow and have it go to seed and feed animals with it as well," we've got this multi-use for it, and we don't have to pick and choose. We don't have to say to a farmer, "Okay, you're going to grow corn today, and you're only going to be selling into the ethanol market." We can do both. I think that with those kinds of ideas and philosophy towards farming, we can get to a million acres.
The other thing I want to say is we also want to activate BIPOC. I believe there are so many areas in this country that need to have a solution for their farmlands and their communities, and I think hemp can actually be that. There's farmers that have been struggling, they can't make money off their land. You've got indigenous lands that can start to be part of the solution in bringing industry to indigenous communities. That to me is phenomenal, and that is what we want to do.
Hilary: That's wonderful. What a great tribute to Steve's legacy to bring that to life.
Kim: Yes, indeed.
Hilary: To wrap things up, I wanted to switch over to our rapid-fire questions. First is, when I want to recharge, I--
Kim: Read and go to the ocean. I'm a water person.
Hilary: Advice I'd give to my younger self.
Kim: I love this question. To me, this is about staying true to your morals and your moral compass while at the same time being tolerant. I was a little strong, opinionated young woman. For me, I think being more collaborative, and allowing others the space to express their genius has been really important for me, as I've been getting a little older, a little bit wiser, and a little bit more of a temperament.
Hilary: Then finally, to me climate positive means--
Kim: Incremental steps. We're not the be-all-end-all. We're not going to solve everything today or tomorrow, but we need to allow for incremental steps to occur. It's been a little hard, I would say, or challenging sometimes in talking to impact investors or folks that are really focused on the ESG story and needing to have everything buttoned up already and it's just not there yet.
If we can make some small, incremental steps, I think I mentioned we're not looking to replace 100% of any given pulp, in any given material, paper or plastic, whatever it might be, we're not looking at that. We're looking at incrementally 10%, 20% replacement, then let us get to 50%. Then maybe we'll get to 100%, but if we never do the 10% or 20%, we're just stopped. To me, that's a shame. To me, that's really what I think success in climate means is that we start taking these incremental steps right now.
Hilary: Kim, thank you so much for joining us. It's always so energizing to hear about your work and I'm excited to see where it goes.
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I'm Hilary Langer.
And this is Climate Positive.