The private sector has been a critical driver of increasing clean energy on the grid. Since 2008, corporate renewable purchases have helped bring online nearly 150 GW of new renewable energy capacity globally — more than the total power-generating capacity of France. Despite these purchase commitments, overall global emissions from the power sector have remained flat at a time when we need to see a sharp decline. At the same time, extreme weather events have exposed vulnerabilities in the reliability of the current fossil-fuel powered grid that aren’t yet being addressed at sufficient scale. Earlier this year, a group of leading companies focused on accelerating decarbonization while also bolstering grid reliability partnered with RMI, a leading climate NGO, to launch the Zero-Emissions | Reliability Optimized Grid Initiative, or ZEROgrid, with the objective of developing a comprehensive roadmap to accelerate the transition to a zero-emissions grid. In this episode, Chad Reed chats with Mark Dyson, Managing Director at RMI, about the challenges ZEROgrid aims to address, the objectives it seeks to achieve as well as the concept of applied hope.
The private sector has been a critical driver of increasing clean energy on the grid. Since 2008, corporate renewable purchases have helped bring online nearly 150 GW of new renewable energy capacity globally — more than the total power-generating capacity of France. Despite these purchase commitments, overall global emissions from the power sector have remained flat at a time when we need to see a sharp decline. At the same time, extreme weather events have exposed vulnerabilities in the reliability of the current fossil-fuel powered grid that aren’t yet being addressed at sufficient scale.
Earlier this year, a group of leading companies focused on accelerating decarbonization while also bolstering grid reliability partnered with RMI, a leading climate NGO, to launch the Zero-Emissions | Reliability Optimized Grid Initiative, or ZEROgrid, with the objective of developing a comprehensive roadmap to accelerate the transition to a zero-emissions grid.
In this episode, Chad Reed chats with Mark Dyson, Managing Director at RMI, about the challenges ZEROgrid aims to address, the objectives it seeks to achieve as well as the concept of applied hope.
Links:
Amory Lovins (RMI): Applied Hope (May 2019)
Episode recorded November 28, 2023
Email your feedback to Chad, Gil, and Hilary at climatepositive@hasi.com or tweet them to @ClimatePosiPod.
Chad Reed: I'm Chad Reed.
Hillary Langer: I'm Hillary Langer.
Gil Jenkins: I'm Gil Jenkins.
Chad: This is Climate Positive.
Mark Dyson: What does good look like, how can we shape consensus around corporate action that supports reliability versus potentially even making it worse? I think there's a broad recognition now that the consensus that we've got built on 10-plus years of success isn't actually sufficient to get us where we need to go as fast as we need to get there.
Chad: The private sector has been a critical driver of increasing clean energy on the grid. Since 2008, corporate renewable purchases have helped bring online nearly 150 GW of new renewable energy capacity globally — more than the total power-generating capacity of France. Despite these purchase commitments, overall global emissions from the power sector have remained flat at a time when we need to see a sharp decline. At the same time, extreme weather events have exposed vulnerabilities in the reliability of the current fossil-fuel powered grid that aren’t yet being addressed at sufficient scale.
Earlier this year, a group of leading companies focused on accelerating decarbonization while also bolstering grid reliability partnered with RMI, a leading climate NGO, to launch the Zero-Emissions | Reliability Optimized Grid Initiative, or ZEROgrid, with the objective of developing a comprehensive roadmap to accelerate the transition to a zero-emissions grid.
In this episode, I chat with Mark Dyson, Managing Director at RMI, about the challenges ZEROgrid aims to address, the objectives it seeks to achieve as well as the concept of applied hope.
Chad: Mark, thank you so much for joining us today. It's a real pleasure to have you.
Mark: Yes, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Chad: Awesome. First, I want to start with a question that I'd like to ask all of our guests. How did you find your way to the climate space?
Mark: This is a good one. When I was a senior in college many years ago, I had to do a team capstone project for my computer science degree. We ended up choosing to build a web page from the back end all the way to the user interface for the college's single wind turbine that was sited in a field just off campus. The website was meant to help students and the public learn about the wind turbine, see the real-time and historical data around electricity generation, how much carbon and money it was saving every day.
I'd always admired that turbine. That big piece of Scandinavian modern art sweeping over the cornfields of Southern Minnesota, but once I got into the data on renewable energy, I was hooked and I couldn't go back.
Chad: I don't want to date you, but what year was this?
Mark: Oh, that's a loaded question. 2007.
Chad: Awesome. Now you're with the Rocky Mountain Institute, RMI, you're a managing director. Tell us a little about your current role. What do you focus on?
Mark: Let me start with what RMI is all about. We've been around for a while, but we've changed a lot in the last couple of years. RMI was founded as Rocky Mountain Institute in 1982, but has rebranded to RMI. We're an independent nonprofit organization focused on the energy transition. We started 40 years ago as a small team, 8,000 feet above sea level in the Rockies, and now we're a 700-person team working in 60-plus countries all over the world on every sector of the economy. I have the privilege of leading the electricity team at RMI. I support the work of our team here in the US and globally working on carbon-free electricity topics.
Chad: Excellent. RMI is definitely one of the most respected NGO in the climate space I can say personally working with you all. Now I want to turn to ZEROgrid, which is an initiative that is led by your organization. Earlier this year, a group of corporate voluntary decarbonization leaders, including General Motors, Meta, Prologis, Salesforce, Walmart, Akamai, others partnered with you all to stand up what is called the ZEROgrid Initiative. Tell us what is the ZEROgrid Initiative and the impetus behind it.
Mark: I'll start with the impetus, and then we'll talk a little bit about what we're up to. About a year ago, a few of the large energy buyers that my team partners with and has worked with for years came to us with some concerns. I'll summarize them in two categories. The first was around the pace of carbon emissions reductions. These companies and RMI recognized that despite all the amazing progress that these companies and others have made over the past 15 years in procuring carbon-free electricity, we as a society are not on track to limit the worst effects of climate change. We need to move faster.
We recognized with these companies an opportunity to better take advantage of all the superpowers, if you will, that different companies could bring to bear and support each company in targeting what they do to match their skills and core business and capabilities and reduce the most emissions. Right now the issue is there's a one-size-fits-all all reward system, if you will, for companies taking action on climate and it actually doesn't work for everyone and it's not leading to the pace of emissions reductions that we need. That's the first concern that we explored, this issue around the pace of carbon emissions reductions in corporate's role.
The second concern is reliability, grid reliability specifically. I hope it's an obviously true statement that prosperity and economic growth in this country and globally requires reliable electricity, and because of that, any energy transition that we want to realize is a non-starter if the lights go out. Unfortunately, we're moving in the wrong direction in the United States. We probably don't need to tell you we've had big blackouts and small blackouts from Texas to California to the Northeast to the Midwest, almost everywhere.
It's going to get worse with low growth and the most common strategy that we're seeing, utilities and transmission operators supporting to support reliability is to build new unabated gas-fired power plants, which goes in the face of the decarbonization concern we are just talking about. These are some of the concerns that we and the companies that we've been working with on ZEROgrid started discussing about a year ago that led us to where we are today.
Chad: What are the underlying interconnected challenges that drive those two issues, both the reliability and the decarbonization speed issues? Can you go into those three?
Mark: Yes, so the three challenges that we've anchored around in our work with the companies and our other partners are our load growth, the pace of carbon-free electricity deployment and the pace of infrastructure expansion. To go into each of those briefly, load growth, it's been talked about a lot the past six months or so. We've had a flat load in this country for the past 15-plus years, but now with reshoring and onshoring of manufacturing spurred by recent federal legislation, the coming wave of EVs, and of course, the growing role of data centers in our economy.
These are three of the many trends that are combining at the moment to make load growth look quite steep in the coming years. The second challenge is around the pace of carbon-free electricity resource investment. We weren't keeping up even before we started to see this level of load growth and now it's even worse. Data from the Department of Energy shows that the median time to interconnect a new project in this country, a new carbon-free energy project has exceeded six years as of last year. Interconnection studies themselves for wind and solar projects are now taking on average three years or more to complete.
Then financial challenges and incentives for utilities remain a barrier for investment, even after we have the Inflation Reduction Act and all of the incentives that that contained. We're not keeping up with the need in deploying carbon-free energy.
Chad: Do you have any high-level thoughts on why the US in particular has such poor ability to develop transmission independent of load growth, but even with low growth, it's even more of a challenge? This is seemingly more a US challenge than European or other developed world challenges. Do you have any high-level thoughts on why?
Mark: There are the three Ps of transmission investment: permitting, planning, and paying. We have challenges associated with all of those in the US that are exacerbated by the overlapping jurisdictions in this country between county, state, RTO, federal, all are required to get projects moving to determine who pays for the projects either to start them or once they're up and running. For these reasons, it's been taking a decade or more to build the long inner regional lines that we need to grow the grid to the level that we do to support a fully decarbonized economy by the middle of this century.
That's actually the third challenge, is this pace of infrastructure expansion that would unlock the investment in carbon-free energy that we need. It's also a problem on the low-voltage side. You were talking about transmission chart, but on the distribution system, we've seen wait times grow from months to years to interconnect new manufacturing facilities or new EV charging depots because of a variety of things related to backlogs in transformers due to the supply chain issues over the past couple years, but also just slow planning procedures within utility jurisdictions that are limiting the pace of how quickly we can add load to the distribution grid.
Chad: Right. Why aren't we able to solve these problems today? What are the key obstacles that are impeding our ability to do so?
Mark: What is keeping corporates from tackling these big challenges? I think the biggest thing that probably underlies all the other things that are keeping us from taking action is a lack of consensus about what good looks like. In the corporate space, we have grown an amazing community of practice around carbon-free energy procurement over the past 10 years, and there are many existing structures and tools, for example, the Greenhouse Gas Protocol Scope 2 framework that tell us what good looks like reflecting on the last 15 years of progress, but I think there's a broad recognition now that the consensus that we've got built on 10-plus years of success isn't actually sufficient to get us where we need to go as fast as we need to get there.
We don't have a consensus on what good procurement looks like, what good policy advocacy looks like among the corporate space. Until we know and can realign this community of practice around these emerging priorities that reflect where we are today in 2023 and not where we were 10 years ago in 2013 at the beginning of the renewables boom, we're going to fail to make progress. That's the biggest issue I think that we're trying to address.
Chad: Got it. Then maybe there are a couple of others like recognition for corporates that want to look beyond their own walls and address a systemic level change. Can you speak to that as well?
Mark: Yes. This is a huge challenge. Right now, the reward system, the incentive system, if you will, for companies is built on things like the Scope 2 Framework that measure progress by the extent to which companies have zeroed out their own Scope 2 footprints, for example, for purchased electricity. That's great and it also is very reflective of an enterprise-level goal, meaning that you can get a gold star if, at the enterprise level, you've procured enough megawatt-hours of carbon-free electricity as you've consumed in electricity in a year. That doesn't actually necessarily guarantee system-level change.
There's no guarantee that the procured electricity is actually reducing global carbon emissions versus just zeroing out a company's footprint. We need to reorient and generate consensus on what really should be the recognition structure for system-level change, not enterprise-level footprinting.
Chad: Right. We talked about some of the corporates that you're working with and that co-founded this initiative with you all, but what are some of the other organizations and stakeholders that you've been engaging with and how you've been engaging with them?
Mark: We've got some really important fellow travelers on this journey in addition to our corporate partners. I'll start with the regional transmission organizations, the RTOs. We can't have a real conversation about reliability without engaging directly with the people whose job it is to keep the lights on. We've got PJM and MISO, two of the largest grid operators in this country who are regularly joining our reliability advisory initiative working group calls and supporting our work and engaging with the corporates on what does good look like, how can we shape consensus around corporate action that supports reliability versus potentially even making it worse.
That's one category and we've got a couple of other RTOs that have been joining those calls. It's great to see interest and momentum grow. The second category of fellow travelers is the experts, the researchers, the academics, the practitioners on impact assessment. This is our impact advisory initiative. We've got leading companies like WattTime and [unintelligible 00:11:38] who develop approaches and research to quantify the impact of different companies' actions.
We've also got academics from leading universities on both coasts and national labs joining our working group calls to have productive arguments that can help the corporate community of practice move beyond annual accounting for megawatt hours and existing Scope 2 guidance and help define consensus around corporate action that moves the needle at the system level. Those are the two initiatives that we have that are stood up within the ZEROgrid project at RMI, but we're also engaging a bunch of other stakeholders here.
We've gotten a ton of interest from technology developers who are interested in developing new transmission or generation technologies and want to understand what the corporate appetite might be to get involved. We've got other large energy buyers who are in our orbit. I'll name here, for example, the federal government agencies who together are some of the biggest buyers of electricity in the world. It's great to see, given recent executive orders, their interest in moving the needle on carbon-free energy procurement.
Then, of course, the Clean Energy Buyers Association, CEBA has been a partner with us in thinking through how we can be most complimentary to the progress they've already made over the past eight years.
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Chad: You've built this large coalition of folks across the spectrum. You have a very clear view on the challenges that you're trying to address, so what are the solutions? What are the pillars of action that you're focusing on and what are your key objectives?
Mark: There are five. I'll start with the one that we're all probably most familiar with which is procurement of carbon-free electricity resources. This has been the foundation of success and impact in the corporate space for 15 years for good reason. We are trying to move the needle with our partners to focus company's procurement actions in a way that is targeted at impact. Not every megawatt hour that a company procures will have the same climate impact. Wind in West Texas where there's already a ton of wind or solar in California where there's already a ton of solar might have minimal impacts on global greenhouse gas emissions in the short term and even in the long term.
We're trying to orient and develop frameworks for recognizing the impact of carbon-free electricity in places where there isn't a lot of it right now, or carbon-free electricity that can generate power at times when there isn't other carbon-free energy available which we think is more impactful in the short and long term. We're, again, working to align procurement focus in ways that recognize this for the corporate space. That's the first pillar of action that we want to move forward on. The next is policy. A lot of these challenges require collective action and policy is one of the biggest levers for achieving collective action.
We want to explicitly recognize the head start we've gotten with the Inflation Reduction Act with the bipartisan infrastructure law from the past couple of years, which together have had a huge impact on some of the economic challenges for deploying carbon-free electricity. There's an opportunity to do a lot more and to engage corporates to define how they can participate in the policy space to achieve their business goals and also their climate goals. To name a couple of examples, interconnection reform. We've seen great progress with FERC Order 2023, and there's so much more to do. Transmission planning; we have a pending order from FERC on regional transmission planning, which is great. The more the companies can name their priorities around what that looks like and how it can evolve going forward, the clear that voice of the industry can be in defining what is needed for prosperity and economic growth and how that depends on the transmission system. Those are just a couple of examples of the policy levers we're trying to pull with our partners. The third category is finance. The big idea here is that companies have a variety of ways that they could use their capabilities or take advantage of their core business areas to help remove financial barriers to carbon-free electricity deployment.
Probably the best example here, the most timely example is participating in tax transfer markets, tax credit transfer markets that have been enabled under new rules from the Inflation Reduction Act which can help move carbon-free energy projects forward that otherwise would've faced higher costs or lack of ability to take advantage of tax incentives. We're working with companies to explore how they can really standardize that, level that practice up.
Chad: Can you tell us exactly what that entails, what that means for folks who are not well-versed in the tax equity universe?
Mark: Sure, yes. Prior to the Inflation Reduction Act, it was possible to invest in a carbon-free energy project like a wind farm or a solar farm, even if you didn't have a tax appetite, even if you didn't owe enough tax to take advantage of those tax credits, but only if you partnered with another company to do a tax equity partnership, which would let that other company take those tax credits basically and lower the cost of the project overall.
It worked great, but the issue with that was that there was a pretty limited market of companies that were willing to engage in that kind of transaction, which limited the space and the scale of investment in wind farms and solar farms for companies that didn't necessarily have tax appetites.
Chad: Mostly those were the big banks and some other big corporates, but yes, a very small universe of folks could actually take advantage and participate in tax equity market and benefited from it, perhaps disproportionately, which was also not ideal.
Mark: Yes, there were big barriers to entry and a lot of friction for companies that wanted to get involved in those mechanisms. With the new rules from the Inflation Reduction Act, there's now a potential to basically directly trade those tax credits that are generated by renewable energy projects without having to set up a tax equity partnership which will let potentially many more companies take advantage of their tax appetite to support the investment in renewable energy projects. This is a huge untapped opportunity that we're trying to help our partners and other stakeholders take advantage of.
Chad: I think there's also research and development as another pillar that you are focused on. What are you focusing on here?
Mark: I think it starts with a recognition that emerging technology, pre-commercial technology can play a big role in meeting both decarbonization and reliability objectives. To name a couple of examples, like advanced carbon-free generation technologies like long-duration storage or nuclear or advanced transmission technologies like grid enhancing technologies or advanced superconductors, advanced storage resources.
These are all more or less pre-commercial technologies that can play a valuable and complimentary role to wind, solar, and lithium-ion technologies that are commercial and cost-effective today and are probably going to be needed in the long run to achieve full decarbonization in the timeframe we need to do it. The challenge is that none of these emerging technologies have a ready market that they can deploy in today and earn money on day one in part because they're not commercial yet, in part because the market's not rewarding what they provide yet.
The R&D pillar for us is letting companies guide their R&D dollars in a way that is, again, consistent with their core business and really supports innovation and development on first-of-a-kind projects or end-of-a-kind projects that can achieve scale and get these pre-commercial technologies closer to reality. We want to, again, focus companies' efforts that they're already doing on some of these technologies in the ways that we think can be most impactful overall.
Chad: Right. Then finally, operations. What do we talk about in this context?
Mark: To me, operations means things like virtual power plants and demand response. This is taking advantage of the, in many cases, large loads that our collaborating companies have from things like EV charging depots or even just distributed EVs, data centers, manufacturing facilities, taking advantage of the flexibility of that electricity demand in space and time to directly support both grid decarbonization and grid reliability. There's been a ton of research work in this space from my team and many others on what this looks like and how big of a deal it could be for the climate and for reliability.
So far, there's been a lack of practical guidance and market opportunities for companies to take advantage of this, even if it's economic for them. We want to, through this pillar of work, really lay out the market opportunities for demand response, virtual power plans to contribute to both decarbonization and reliability goals and help match those up with company's core businesses and the levers they can pull within their own operations to affect that change.
Chad: These obviously all sound like very important potential initiatives for companies to embark upon. How are you memorializing all these best practices so that not just the current member companies of ZEROgrid, but many others across the spectrum can learn from them and potentially emulate them?
Mark: We know that even if we have 10 companies or a hundred companies that are working with us, we need thousands of companies to affect the kind of change that we need to see in the world. This is a big part of the work we're doing is making this visible and accessible to everybody, not just the companies working with us to define what this should look like for them. That all lives at zerogrid.org. We've got a section of our website that's called the Corporate Action Playbook, where right now, it's growing quickly. It's going to be a living document that has a couple of examples right now of the context of the challenges that we face in terms of reliability and decarbonization, specific kinds of solutions.
For example, what's on there right now is a deep dive into grid-enhancing technologies that can increase the capacity of the existing transmission system and ways for companies to get involved in scaling this technology. Eventually, we're going to be growing the library of materials in this playbook in consultation with our corporate collaborators, with the RTOS, with academics and other researchers to many different kinds of solutions, including, we've talked about finance, we talked about EV charging infrastructure, and many more. This will all be available, and again, hopefully scaled and available to all the companies that want to learn about how they can make the most impact.
Chad: I think, as we noted earlier, one of the other challenges, companies may have some good intentions and when they've already started along some of these pathways, but to really scale them, we need some sort of external recognition, such that they are receiving credit in the marketplace for all this good work that they're doing that they're not directly either entirely or at all benefiting from. How do we either create new recognition programs or shape existing ones to help drive action on these fronts?
Mark: We're doing both. I think the first thing that we're trying to do is show not tell. We're already working with companies that are doing really innovative stuff that is maybe below the waterline or on the back page or in the back half of their annual sustainability report, but in our view, it could be really impactful if only we quantified the benefits and made it clear how it was creating an impact. We're engaging in project-based work and advising and consulting on what that could look like for different companies in different spaces that fits into these five pillars.
When we see leadership, we're not afraid to highlight it and we're not afraid to show using our own independent view of what's needed in the long run and how companies can take part in that, what good looks like. Hopefully, through some of these project-based learnings and highlighting the successes that we're seeing and the lessons learned, we're going to start to grow recognition organically. Then we're also going to work with standard setters themselves to incorporate some of these lessons learned, some of the best practices that we're trying to develop with companies into the things that are formal guidelines for companies.
The Scope 2 guidance from the Greenhouse Gas Protocol is being revised as we speak. This is a great example of how some of these standards are living and can start to take into account new insights from industry and from researchers and get better over time. Again, we're doing both our own work on highlighting success based on projects that we can evaluate and also making sure that some of that is codified to the best extent we can into existing standards and frameworks.
Chad: What does the next year to you look like for ZEROgrid? Where are we going from here?
Mark: I think that the most visible deliverable, if you will, is just going to be the growth of this Corporate Actions Playbook that lives on our website. It'll be a living document that reflects input from companies, from leading researchers, from RTOs, and really helps show the direction of travel for where we hope to build consensus. Behind the scenes, we're going to be building a community of practice around that. We're going to be engaging with many more companies than we are right now, formally and informally, to understand what good looks like for them. How this emerging consensus and guidance can be shaped in a way that works for their business and helps them unlock their full decarbonization potential.
We're excited to have some specific conversations and deliverables that make their way from our reliability advisors, the RTOs, and our impact advisors, the companies and academics in a way that can materially meet challenges that we're seeing in 2023 and 2024. I'll name load growth. I think a lot of folks listening to this podcast have probably seen the headlines about load growth from factories, load growth from EVs.
We're working with our advisors and our companies to put out specific and actionable views on how to take some of the considerations around load growth into account and what they do from a sustainability perspective. It's full steam ahead for the next year and you'll see a lot of it show up on our website, and a lot of it's going on behind the scenes to support that.
Chad: How can other companies who are not currently involved or even individuals potentially get involved with ZEROgrid if they want to help support your mission?
Mark: The first ask is please don't be a stranger. We've got, six companies on the website now, probably talking to a dozen more. I think we can learn more from every new company that we talk to about what their pain points are around achieving their climate goals, around achieving their business goals while not exacerbating the reliability challenge, so don't be a stranger. Then our website has a connection link and we encourage people to reach out, learn about what it looks like to collaborate formally with us or even just maintain a cadence of informal conversations. They're both helpful.
Chad: Excellent. Mark, we're almost done, but first, we have the hot seat. We ask for your immediate reactions to the following statements. One thing I'd changed my mind on is--
Mark: Load growth. Five years ago, I was not convinced. I assumed the data.
Chad: You were bearish on load growth?
Mark: I was bearish on load growth. Utilities and grid operators have done basically a terrible job for the past 15 years in forecasting load growth. They always think it's going up, up, up and it keeps being flat, flat, flat. I had allowed myself to assume that that would remain to be true. Now in the past 6 to 12 months, it's very clear that structurally, things are changing and load growth is coming and we need to get ahead of it. That's the thing I've changed my mind about most recently.
Chad: Interesting. When I need to recharge, I--
Mark: Go mountain biking.
Chad: The key ingredient to my productivity is--
Mark: My team. The people around me doing great work, keeping me motivated and inspired.
Chad: I want my kids to know--
Mark: I want my kids to maybe not know. I want my kids to be excited and looking forward to what's coming and not concentrating on what's past or the negative of what's coming. It's an exciting time. There's a lot of work to do. I want my daughter to know that.
Chad: That's awesome. That's a great answer. You're in Boulder, Colorado. Is Boulder overrated or underrated and why?
Mark: It's Goldilocks-rated, just right. Properly rated, not over or under you. Basically, you get what you expect here if you come or move to Boulder.
Chad: Awesome. Then finally, to me, climate-positive means--
Mark: To me, climate positive is associated with an ethos of RMI, which our founder, Amory Lovins has described as applied hope. Hope is not a passive state. We have to apply hope for the future through hard work to realize that change. Another way to think about it, and I'll paraphrase the great systems thinker, Dana Meadows, here, if we want to confront the challenges that we face, including climate change, it's important to be of the mindset that we have exactly enough time to do it if we start right now. To me, climate positive is consistent with some of those mindsets that I try to take into my work.
Chad: That's awesome. Applied hope. A great phrase. Mark, this has been really fun. Thank you so much for your time today. It was great learning about ZEROgrid and you and look forward to staying in touch.
Mark: Thanks for the invitation, Chad. Great to speak today.
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I'm Chad Reed.
And this is Climate Positive.