People want performance. As sustainability focused as a new product can be, if it is truly attempting to dominate the market, the new product has to be as good as or better than the less sustainable incumbent it is looking to replace. This is especially true with sustainable food. To this end, many of us have searched – often in vain – for plant-based dairy products, such as ice cream and cheese, that are both delicious and environmentally sustainable. In this episode, Chad Reed sits down with Tim Wildin, CEO of Vertage. Using a chef-driven, science-backed, and consumer-focused approach, Vertage develops and sells delicious plant-based cheeses to restaurants across the spectrum in select U.S. cities. Tim talks about his career journey through the sustainable food space, how he teamed up with Chef Margaux Riccio to found Vertage, the secret sauce behind Vertage’s plant-based cheeses, and much more.
People want performance. As sustainability focused as a new product can be, if it is truly attempting to dominate the market, the new product has to be as good as or better than the less sustainable incumbent it is looking to replace. This is especially true with sustainable food. To this end, many of us have searched – often in vain – for plant-based dairy products, such as ice cream and cheese, that are both delicious and environmentally sustainable.
In this episode, Chad Reed sits down with Tim Wildin, CEO of Vertage. Using a chef-driven, science-backed, and consumer-focused approach, Vertage develops and sells delicious plant-based cheeses to restaurants across the spectrum in select U.S. cities. Tim talks about his career journey through the sustainable food space, how he teamed up with Chef Margaux Riccio to found Vertage, the secret sauce behind Vertage’s plant-based cheeses, and much more.
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Episode recorded March 22, 2022
Chad Reed: This is Climate Positive – a show featuring candid conversations with the leaders, innovators, and changemakers driving our climate positive future. I’m Chad Reed.
Hilary Langer: I’m Hilary Langer.
Gil Jenkins: I’m Gil Jenkins.
Tim Wildin: I thought, my God, here is this classically trained chef who is making these incredibly artisanal cheeses. What if we can actually scale this?... When you taste something this delicious, you really question why we would ever use animals [chuckles]
Chad: People want performance. As sustainability-focused as a new product can be, if it is truly attempting to dominate the market, the new product has to be as good as or better than the less sustainable incumbent it is looking to replace. This is especially true with regard to sustainable food. To this end, many of us have searched – often in vain – for plant-based dairy products, such as ice cream and cheese, that are both delicious and environmentally sustainable.
In this episode, I sit down with Tim Wildin, CEO of Vertage. Using a chef-driven, science-backed, and consumer-focused approach, Vertage develops and sells delicious plant-based cheeses to restaurants across the spectrum in select U.S. cities. Tim talks about his career journey through the sustainable food space, how he teamed up with Chef Margaux Riccio to found Vertage, the secret sauce behind Vertage’s plant-based cheeses, and much more.
Hilary: Climate Positive is produced by Hannon Armstrong, a leading investor in climate solutions for over 30 years. To learn more about our climate positive journey, please visit hannonarmstrong.com.
Chad: Tim, thanks for joining us today.
Tim: Thanks for having me.
Chad: I always like to start our episodes discussing our guest's personal journey into the climate space. Where exactly did you grow up?
Tim: I was born in Bangkok. My mom is Thai. My dad was American. I grew up going to school in Connecticut. I came here to the states in time for school. My dad had an office in New York so I grew up between Connecticut-New York because his office was there, and then I was also in Bangkok for most of my summers. It was quite a disparate upbringing between rural Connecticut, I would say, and this Bangkok metropolis, really.
Chad: Do you back to Bangkok often?
Tim: I do. I haven't been in two years because of the pandemic, but, yes. It's a yearly or more trip back home for me.
Chad: You were relatively close to New York. You then decided to study at NYU, and then you started your career with the Jonathan Morr Group, the design-conscious hotelier and restaurateur, whose properties include Indochine and several others that folks may be familiar with, before then, moving to Chipotle where you spent a decade helping to build their food with integrity program and helping to establish a Chipotle sustainability program. Could you tell us about your experience at Chipotle?
Tim: Oh, yes. I came up through food in New York and through fine dining and through nightlife with Jonathan Morr, like you said. I learned so much from him and his organization. To be honest, when I left Jonathan Morr Group for Chipotle, I was coming from luxury fine dining nightlife, all my friends thought I was nuts for going to work at a burrito joint, Were their words.
At the time Chipotle was mostly pretty much regional player. It was maybe 300 locations or so. By no means small, but it wasn't a big deal in New York, at least not yet. I spent over a decade there. It was 2,500 locations when I left, but joining Chipotle was truly one of the best things I've done in my life. It was eye-opening. I learned so much there. I joke that I got my MBA there, masters in burrito assembly, but truly, it was like getting an MBA while working.
When I landed at Chipotle, they were already doing so many great things along their supply chain, but they just weren't talking about it. I really was tasked with cracking the code on figuring out how to tell the story of what the supply chain team was doing, what they were already doing. This was at the directive of the founder and CEO, Steve Ells, as well as the chief marketing officer. We built a team that was basically an internal agency, that partnered with an outside agency as well, to work back along the supply chain and figure out what was differentiating about Chipotle.
When I joined, all of the messaging from the brand was really about big burrito, very delicious. For sure, there was a great copywriter there. He's excellent. There's some really witty stuff out there, but there was just no values-oriented marketing. We had to figure out what does a consumer care about and if they don't care about what we're doing, how do we make them care about it? It was a really interesting role because I split my time between, obviously, an office because I was a marketer, but I was also in the restaurants a lot, a lot more than you'd imagine. I was in our commissaries a lot.
I ended up taking on the head of menu development role as well. I took on the culinary team. I was in our commissaries a lot. In fact, I was on lots of farms and ranches that the company sourced from, truly giving me a real farm, to commissary, to fork understanding of the supply chain and food production. Over the course of 10 years, obviously, it was a lot of learnings. We rode from being a Wall Street darling to a series of food safety scares to really spurring the comeback through some menu innovation that got customers interested in coming back to Chipotle. It was a really great time in my career.
Chad: While you were there, you also were instrumental in launching sofritas, the tofu-based vegan protein option, which I incidentally love and which allows me, as a flexitarian, to continue to enjoy Chipotle. What were the motivations for this product launch and how exactly did it come about?
Tim: It's a really interesting story, Chad. Chipotle was a brand that wasn't necessarily known for menu innovation, frankly, the brand didn't need it. There were no signs of menu fatigue in any of the consumer research that we did, but we definitely saw an opportunity amongst, what we called at the time, vegetarian consumers, right? There was not this term plant-based just yet. Sofritas was, in fact, the first new menu item in the company's 20 or so year history. It was very important to us to bring not another animal protein, but something else. Something that, what I would say, now as a flexitarian consumer could enjoy.
The story of how it really came about was I had actually launched a Thai Southeast Asian version of Chipotle called ShopHouse. We grew it to about 15 units, which Chipotle owned and then divested of, but at the time, I wanted this tofu on our menu at ShopHouse. I had met a man named Minci, who is an artisanal, but artisanal at scale, which is important, producer of organic non-GMO tofu, yuba skins. Just really, really incredible product. I wanted it for ShopHouse and the way to make it economically viable was through scale.
I saw this gap on the Chipotle menu. Consulted with the culinary team at Chipotle to conceive of something that was, at the time, very innovative. It was a shredded tofu in a sofrito. We didn't have the words to describe it. that's the name sofritas was born.
It's something that it really has outperformed. Obviously, I'm not at Chipotle anymore. I can see what percentage of the product mix it still makes up, but it certainly outperformed, in the years that I was there, our expectations.
Chad: Then you took your career in a more tech-oriented direction. You headed up culinary for the SoftBank startup Zume, and then you did some consulting in the cloud kitchen space before you met Chef Margaux Riccio to co-found Vertage in late 2020. Can you tell us a little bit more about Vertage’s founding story?
Tim: Sure. When I left Chipotle, obviously, it was a choice to go in a more tech-oriented direction. There's just so much innovation happening in food and in food technology, whether that pertains to ingredients and emerging food technology to clean up our supply chain or emerging food technology to increase access or delivery and things like this. I knew I wanted to go in that way.
I was in the cloud kitchen space for a couple of years, and frankly, I just missed being closer to product or to food. I'm a food and beverage guy through and through. The cloud kitchen space is really interesting. The landscape is shifting under our feet very quickly as it relates to restaurants and how people access food. I just missed being really close to food and not in a strategy role where I was in the cloud kitchen space.
With Margaux, I actually met her through one of our early investors in Vertage.. Margaux runs a number of quick-service-style restaurants in DC. She's been making these cheeses for years in her restaurants. This investor really saw an opportunity in the high-quality cheeses that she produces versus what's on the market. He put us together. I went down to DC, I met her. We tasted through a variety of cheeses and I thought, most of them, Chad, really blew me away.
This is over a year and a half ago at this point. I thought, my God, here is this classically trained chef who is making these incredibly artisanal cheeses. What if we can actually scale this? So she gave me a peek behind the curtain. I looked at her process and for sure she almost works like a fine chocolatier, but because of my experience at Chipotle and understanding commissary or co-packer production, I definitely knew there was a way, particularly, if we brought food science under the tent to figure out a way to scale this and achieve that artisanal at-scale quality that we would need.
Chad: That's great. I actually personally became a flexitarian a couple of years ago. I still eat seafood a few times a week, but I do try to eat plant-based beef and chicken when I eat meat. My partner eats a lot of animal protein, but he's lactose intolerant. He can enjoy the array of ice cream and cheeses that I love. We're a very fun dinner party guests [chuckles] for those reasons as well.
I've had some very good non-dairy ice creams. Van Leeuwen, I think, makes a number of very excellent flavors, but I haven't had really excellent non-dairy or vegan cheese. Obviously, you did when you connected with Margaux, but why do so many non-cheeses kind of suck to be honest?
Tim: I think that's an apt description and I think that's why we wanted to get in this space. Frankly, most plant-based cheeses just aren't very good because they're really, really difficult to make. The subtlety of taste, texture, the ability to slice, shred, crumble, melt, stretch, brown, et cetera when cooking. These are all really, really difficult things to achieve. It's a shapeshifter. It's something that is in one state, but when you cook it, it has to transform in a multitude of ways. Frankly, what's on the market today generally falls into three camps in terms of plant-based cheese.
There are cheeses whose entire supply chain or story is around soy. I mean, with a huge plant kingdom to pull from, that doesn't seem like an intelligent move to me. We can use so many different plants to create so many different things. There's another school, and this is a big one, of plant-based cheeses that, I think, is more like cheese mimicry. What that is is all it is, is oils, starch, and natural flavor. Let me tell you oil and starch and the natural flavor does not a cheese make. It's mimicry.
Then there are some newer entrants into the fold that are really based in nuts. Some are nuts and cultures, and those are generally better, but I think it's to take it to the next level, it's going to be a mixture of these plant-based ingredients, fermentation as a foundation. That's what we found is really the throughline in our story. The fermentation is really important, both traditional methods and novel forms of fermentation as well. I think, for us, Chad, it's really about taking a novel approach. I think our novel approach is resulting in a better product.
Our approach is chef-driven. It's science-backed. It's consumer-focused. I mean, everything we do just because of who's on the leadership team in Vertage, everything we do is rooted in culinary tradition. I'm talking about generations-old fermentation techniques, culturing techniques to the careful selection of each ingredient and those ingredients because it depends, it is a diverse supply chain. Each of these ingredients is designed to create a sophisticated sensory experience.
That's why having a chef at the helm of this company as a founder and having a great world-class team of chefs involved on our cheeseboard, pah tam pamp, is really important. They're involved along every step of the way, which I think is very different from most plant-based companies. Certainly, most plant-based cheese companies are very lab-driven, but as far as science goes, though, the idea of science I think is something positive.
The idea of science can definitely conjure up images of processed junk food, but in reality, science is at the heart of all cooking. We firmly believe that at Vertage and we believe that what matters is really how it's applied. That's why we embrace, frankly, all kinds of new technologies, emerging technologies. From mycelial fermentation, microbial biodesign. We can combine these technologies in ways that no one else can to really create delicious culinary experiences for people.
The last thing I'd say, Chad, about the real differentiator for Vertage here, is that, hopefully, I'm just instilling a culture in our company of a relentless consumer focus. Consumers, they may say something, but what consumers say they want, isn't always what they actually buy. Sustainable, nutritious foods. They sound great, but unless they're delicious, it's not going to really make a dent. That's why the focus is really on delivering that great culinary experience and working through chefs is our strategy to get there.
Chad: In some ways, it reminds me of the electric car industry and that as someone who used to have an electric car, actually, a Tesla that was very high performing was great. It wasn't suited for my particular lifestyle for a number of reasons, but people want performance. As sustainability-focused as they can be, the product has to be as good as if not better than a non-sustainable alternative. It seems like you're really focused on that at Vertage.
Tim: 100%. I think that the focus is really on creating delicious, wonderful culinary experiences. They happen to be nutritious and sustainable. Nutritious, and sustainable is like table stakes, but it's just baked into the product.
Chad: Tell us about your product lines. I think you've already developed dairy-free or vegan mozzarella, cream cheese, cheddar, are those your current product lines, and where are you think of going to next?
Tim: That's right. Currently, we have commercialized our very first skew, which is fresh mozzarella. This is a well, I mean that's a good analogy, it's fresh mozzarella, so it's perfect for margarita pizzas or really great salads or paninis. The melt on it is incredible. It is deliciously creamy and we're receiving a ton of great feedback from chefs, in fact, we're in a number of restaurants in DC, a few in New York, and we've just launched, exclusively, in Los Angeles at Crossroads, which is Crossroads is like the mecca of plant-based dining in Los Angeles. It has Chef Tal Ronnen at the helm as chef and owner. Tal is the founder of Kite Hill, another plant-based cheese company, mostly focused on cream cheeses and spreads, but he has just shifted all of the pizza cheeses to Vertage as of a week ago. A really huge proponent of Vertage. He just loves it so much and switched the whole restaurant over.
That's the first SKU out of the gate. We also have a cream cheese that should be ready for sale in probably about eight weeks or so. It's completely indistinguishable, in my opinion, from its animal counterpart. When you taste something this delicious, you really question why we would ever use animals [chuckles] and [unintelligible 00:15:31] such an inefficient technology to create something like cream cheese.
We also have cheddar in the works. This is likely for next year, but Margaux makes a delicious smoked gouda, monster blue like a chevre, or like I call it a crumble, but it's basically delicious in salads. There's a ton that's in the pipeline, it's just that we are a seed-stage company that is fairly bootstrapped at the moment. I just think the proliferation of the product portfolio is not wise at the moment. We have to focus on a few and knock it out of the park with the chef partners.
Chad: You have formed these relationships with restaurants and chefs at high-end restaurants in some cases, why are you pursuing that market before Whole Foods, the grocery market, or direct to consumer, why that market first?
Tim: Food Service for me is where it’s at, especially with this category. There's a number of reasons why. From an operational perspective, there's operational and pricing flexibility that the foodservice channel buys us that retail does not. Same with product improvement. We spent all of 2021 deep in R&D. We are just now getting the first product off the manufacturing line. That is always going to be in a continuous improvement process. Certainly, working through chefs also provides us excellent feedback with real-time users who really know what they're doing. To incorporate that feedback early on, I think is integral into building the best product possible.
Also, though, from a marketing perspective, I think it's the best way to create delightful experiences for people. We could take the seed stage round of funding that we had and try to go fight a retail war and pay for slotting fees and end up on a shelf and appeal to probably a very niche consumer like that super early adopter for whom sustainability is their main purchase driver. That's not what I want to do. I want this to break through via mainstream chefs that are proud to menu Vertage, not to tuck it in the back has like the vegan cheese afterthought, but they love it and they are going to introduce people to it. I just think that's the best way.
Ultimately, Vertage will become a retail brand. There's no question at all, but the chefs are definitely the path to getting there.
Chad: Right. Make sense, absolutely. As you noted, you're a young company, I think just over a year old, seed stage, how have you found the fundraising process?
Tim: [chuckles] Actually, a few days ago, I was joking that when I write my tell-all memoir near the end of my life, there will definitely be a chapter on fundraising for a plant-based cheese during a global pandemic. It's just been really funny, Chad. There's no shortage of capital out there and there's tons of money flowing into plant-based and emerging food technologies, but plant-based cheese, something that we're making is so tangible. It's an experience.
It would have been one thing to raise this money in a room and give a taste of cheese and pair some nice wine with it. I think it would have been a lot easier. Instead, I had been relegated to eating cheese on Zoom with people. It was cheese that arrived in a FedEx box. It was really interesting. That said, we have some really great investors backing us, really excited about who's participating at the moment. Right now, it's just about illustrating traction before we raise that next round.
Chad: If you haven't already, do you have plans to analyze the carbon impact of your cheese, relative to animal-based cheese, which I assume is far more carbon-intensive. This is a climate focus podcast, so have you given it any thought in your efforts?
Tim: To date, we've had to be super capital efficient. Literally, all of that capital has been poured into R&D and now production of the Vertage cheeses. None of that capital has flowed to any impact measurement or anything. Listen, at the end of the day, I just know that, especially from just seeing so much of it during my time at Chipotle, that animal agriculture is just such an inefficient technology. It's an unsustainable means of production at scale. I'm confident we're on the right path. As Vertage continues to test and develop new products, sustainability is always top of mind.
I think sustainability is important just not only on a personal level, but just it's what consumers want. It is one of the drivers of purchase. We're still growing, we're still learning more as a company about the components of our own plant-based cheeses, what's important to chef partners, what's important to consumers. As we adjust to meet those needs, we'll constantly look at our development tactics to ensure that sustainable processes are top of mind for sure.
Chad: Listeners today in DC and New York, where can they tryVertage?
Tim: In DC, we're in I want to say over a two dozen restaurants or so. All of the call your mother locations carry Vertage cream cheese, that's delicious. All of the Andy's Pizza locations carry Vertage Cheese. He just won the pizza expo last year He's is a great pizzaiolo, and then you can go to the website vertagefoods.com and find each and every restaurant that's carrying it.
Chad: Great. Tim, we're almost done but first, we have the hot seat. We asked for your immediate quick thoughts on the following statements.
Tim: Okay.
Chad: The hardest decision I ever made is?
Tim: What to do after leaving Chipotle.
Chad: If I had to do it all over again, I would?
Tim: [chuckles] No regrets. I mean, yes to learnings but no regrets.
Chad: The person I've learned the most from is?
Tim: New York. It's not a person, but she has definitely played a very central role to my life.
Chad: I connect to nature by?
Tim: Scuba diving, for sure. It's one of my biggest passions. It's where I feel most at one with the planet. I love that it's silent, it's quiet, it's beautiful. It's the best thing in the world to do with your husband, wife, partner, whatever.
Chad: Where's the best scuba diving site that folks may not be very aware of?
Tim: Oh, it's definitely for me in Indonesia. I have been all over the world scuba diving. I'm a major scuba diver, I love the ocean. It will be a very particular place called Raja Ampat in Indonesia. It's one of the most biodiverse places on the planet.
Chad: Aside from Climate Positive, my favorite podcast is?
Tim: Home Cooking. I think it started during the pandemic and it's awesome. It's the author of Salt Fat Acid Heat.
Chad: Oh, wow. Cool, and I've also read that your Whitney Houston fan. The best Whitney song is?
Tim: Definitely, How will I know. I loved it as a kid. It was our first dance at our wedding recently.
Chad: I was just going to note that you were married earlier this year to your long-term partner, Chris. Congratulations, and incidentally, I'm planning to get married in June. What one piece of advice would you give for those of us planning weddings right now?
Tim: I would say that your tribe is definitely there to celebrate you and support you. My advice would be to take your time, schedule it over a few days if you can. Whether it's destination or whether it's at your home city, schedule over a few days. You can have quality time with everyone. It goes by so quickly.
Chad: Excellent. The best Thai restaurant in New York City is?
Tim: Oh, my gosh, I'm giving you all my secrets. The best Thai restaurant in Manhattan, it would be Wondee Siam and in Queens, it would be Sri Prabha
Chad: If I weren't the CEO of Vertage, I would be?
Tim: I would be a coral farmer [chuckles] or somehow leading some coral restoration effort somewhere.
Chad: Very important.
Tim: Yes.
Chad: Finally, to me Climate Positive means?
Tim: I think it means having an optimistic outlook on just how much power we have in terms of creating products, driving consumer awareness towards these products that truly make a difference. I'm in food, so I’ll relate it to food that come from more sustainable sources that don't wreak havoc on the planet that are fair and equitable and not based on exploitation. I just think it means having a positive outlook because I think a lot of folks that are in emerging food technology can sometimes come at it from a very pessimistic outlook on where the planet is headed. I think that doesn't always serve the best leadership.
Chad: Excellent. Tim, this has been really fun. Thank you so much for sharing your story and your insights and the story of Vertage. Really appreciate your time today.
Tim: Thanks so much.
Chad: If you enjoyed this week’s episode, please leave us a leave a rating and review on Apple and Spotify, which really helps us reach more listeners.
You can also let us know what you thought via Twitter @ClimatePosiPod or email us at climatepositive@hannonarmstrong.com.
I'm Chad Reed.
And this is Climate Positive.